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Post by Sharky on Jul 14, 2015 11:24:56 GMT -5
That seems like a pretty big risk for Detroit to give up their 1st in 2016 when he is rebuilding... it could be a top 5 pick after trading away Doughty, Weber, and Edler (probably more soon I assume)... meaning Calgary would be getting the 7th overall pick, probably another top 10 pick, and a 2nd in return for 3 mid-1st round prospects. I still passed it, but it could go quite wrong for Detroit if he ends up with a top 5 pick next year.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 11:25:34 GMT -5
3 top ranked former first rounders currently knocking on door of NHL > 2 future first rounders and 1 second rounder who are 2-4 years farther away from NHL.
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Post by Philly on Jul 14, 2015 11:27:59 GMT -5
At first glance I rejected it, but changed my mind. Those prospects are all 1st Rd picks, pretty good ones.
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Post by gmcanucks on Jul 14, 2015 11:28:46 GMT -5
I think Scot got three great prospects who are close to NHL ready for long-term futures who may be better but there's no guarantee. I don't think he's envisioning a 10-year rebuild.
The average first rounder takes three or more years to make it to the NHL and the average 2nd rounder even longer. As Shawn says, all three of the guys he got are Top 50 prospects. Basically it's one pick per player (all three were first rounders), which seems reasonable. Who really knows at this point if Provorov will turn out to be a better player than Shea Theodore?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 11:51:31 GMT -5
Fair enough I was likely always going to pass it (as I do virtually every deal) I just don't understand it at all from Detroit's perspective as it seems he takes all the risk giving up likely better pieces with little to no reward unless guys outperform what they have shown so far.
But lord knows I sure have made some deals that likely make people's head scratch plenty of times so perhaps I should should keep quiet and continue to watch my team fail season after season.
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Post by Nordiques - Chris on Jul 14, 2015 12:09:06 GMT -5
I think Scot got three great prospects who are close to NHL ready for long-term futures who may be better but there's no guarantee. I don't think he's envisioning a 10-year rebuild. The average first rounder takes three or more years to make it to the NHL and the average 2nd rounder even longer. As Shawn says, all three of the guys he got are Top 50 prospects. Basically it's one pick per player (all three were first rounders), which seems reasonable. Who really knows at this point if Provorov will turn out to be a better player than Shea Theodore? Exactly - all three of these picks have only elevated their stock since being drafted as well and obviously further along in development than yet to drafted lads. I'm rolling the dice a bit here since I love nothing more than to actually making the pick.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 12:11:15 GMT -5
Fair enough I was likely always going to pass it (as I do virtually every deal) I just don't understand it at all from Detroit's perspective as it seems he takes all the risk giving up likely better pieces with little to no reward unless guys outperform what they have shown so far. But lord knows I sure have made some deals that likely make people's head scratch plenty of times so perhaps I should should keep quiet and continue to watch my team fail season after season. Guys, I'm about done defending my trades and answering emails about my fears over losing a lottery pick n 2016. I traded for 3 guys currently ranked in the top 50 of all prospects outside the NHL and in the case of Pulock and Theodore the top 10 defensive prospects on the planet. I gave up three guys to be taken in the first or second round of all non-drafted prospects for the years of our lord 2015/16. How am I giving up 'likely better pieces' with 'little or no reward' unless they 'outperform what they've shown so far'? Do all first round picks jump right to the NHL like McDavid? Do you know something about the futures of these 6 prospects that no one else does? Do a little more research outside of the HF rankings to learn exactly what the pieces are before making trade votes. On that subject, trade voting is only a little less ridiculous than a thread on trade voting. You said you wanted a new GM. If you don't like my style, I'll find my way out the rear exit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 12:32:20 GMT -5
I don't read HF so not sure if that is meant to be directed at me but its pretty hollow if so.
The reason I see you giving up the better pieces isn't because I know something that others don't its because I know what everyone else knows, the pick this year is a 7th overall in what is considered a very good draft year versus two mid-round picks in weaker years and a late round pick. Also the 1st next year looks to be a very big risk considering you moved 3 of your top 4 guys this year and the reformed lottery system. I know it is early it just appears to me that you are potentially giving up a top 3 pick next year which is a huge risk and I personally don't think the three prospects have that high end potential (although I love Theodore and think he could be very good).
I definitely do not want you to leave and have no problem with your style, the opposite actually. Coming in and making trades is awesome, defending your trades even better. (Not sure I am a fan of the if you don't agree with my assessment it is because you only read HF comment but that seems to be the exception not the norm.)
I am far from a proponent of trade voting but it does have it purpose based on past history with the league and is largely a formality. The trade thread I think is great because it allows people to explain their thinking and change minds rather than just having GM's think "that is a crazy move" or even worse "this GM doesn't care."
My original post was not meant as an attack, was certainly not meant to drive you out of the league because I think you are a great addition so far and the type of GM we definitely need/want but we do at times bring up issues with deals if something seems odd. It did to me and now I am fine with it, I passed the deal.
Anyways Tl;DR- sorry for any issues this caused, didn't mean it to cause problems, good luck and hope the trade works out and burns Chris badly!
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Post by Hawks on Jul 14, 2015 12:37:48 GMT -5
Frankly I'd put that #7 overall above all those guys. I've seen lots of HF players in the top 50 bust, I don't even like HF much as a research tool as I find they give nearly everyone great scouting reports and 90% of the players on the site at 7.0 C's. The #7 overall has a very good chance to play in the NHL this year as well, if not next year.
The move seems very "lateral" to me. I haven't looked up these guys coming back in detail (no time to do so), but on the surface I didn't like it.
I told you on your on the block post we'd likely be more strict here to some degree and you said you understood…the fact everything you've done so far has passed without problem pretty much gives you no right to complain.
We have no idea what you're gonna do in 12 months, if you ditch us (as others have done in the past), then that team is a LOT harder to sell to a new replacement GM. 'Hey, wanna take over a team of 20 year olds that has no chance to win for 4 years?!"…the answer is usually no or we find someone to watch the team for a year and bail again.
Also, "take my ball and go home" speeches aren't looked upon highly either.
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Post by Sharky on Jul 14, 2015 12:38:00 GMT -5
Over the last >10 years this league has existed, we have found need for trade voting. Largely because we have seen new GMs come in, destroy a team, and leave. Your trades are a hell of a lot better than last years issue with the Islanders GM (traded Crosby for not much at all). I'm sure much of the league wishes we would have rejected that trade.
Also, if a trade passes you have absolutely no obligation to defend the trade in this thread. This thread exists just for discussion. You can just ignore it.
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Post by Philly on Jul 14, 2015 12:38:09 GMT -5
No need to get bent out of shape Scot, your trade is passing just fine. We have had probs with new GM's in the past. So we will be keeping an eye on you some, so far you have been an asset to the league and a breath of fresh air.
We have had probs with new GM'S trashing teams and leaving, making it hard to find a new GM. The Isles were a recent example of that. I had felt thus far you seem a good fit to our league.
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Post by Hawks on Jul 14, 2015 12:49:57 GMT -5
I think Scot got three great prospects who are close to NHL ready for long-term futures who may be better but there's no guarantee. I don't think he's envisioning a 10-year rebuild. The average first rounder takes three or more years to make it to the NHL and the average 2nd rounder even longer. As Shawn says, all three of the guys he got are Top 50 prospects. Basically it's one pick per player (all three were first rounders), which seems reasonable. Who really knows at this point if Provorov will turn out to be a better player than Shea Theodore? I don't think Provorov will, but I do think Meier, Rantanen and Crouse are all very NHL caliber in the next 1-3 years.
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Post by gmcanucks on Jul 14, 2015 12:53:56 GMT -5
I think Scot got three great prospects who are close to NHL ready for long-term futures who may be better but there's no guarantee. I don't think he's envisioning a 10-year rebuild. The average first rounder takes three or more years to make it to the NHL and the average 2nd rounder even longer. As Shawn says, all three of the guys he got are Top 50 prospects. Basically it's one pick per player (all three were first rounders), which seems reasonable. Who really knows at this point if Provorov will turn out to be a better player than Shea Theodore? I don't think Provorov will, but I do think Meier, Rantanen and Crouse are all very NHL caliber in the next 1-3 years. So will Pulock, Theodore and Milano. Don't see your point. No guarantee or evidence to indicate that those guys are going to be better than the three guys Scot received.
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Post by LeafsGM on Jul 14, 2015 12:57:38 GMT -5
I passed it, and for the first time in a while thought Chris is losing this one. Pulock is set for a big role on the isles after a great first pro year. Same thing for Theodore who has impressed at all levels. Milano I haven't kept up with but everyone loves him. All 3 guys are clearly closer than any of the picks involves and who knows about them anyways. The 3 prospects going the way of Detroit are legit, great trade.
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Post by Philly on Jul 14, 2015 13:02:08 GMT -5
I passed it, and for the first time in a while thought Chris is losing this one. Pulock is set for a big role on the isles after a great first pro year. Same thing for Theodore who has impressed at all levels. Milano I haven't kept up with but everyone loves him. All 3 guys are clearly closer than any of the picks involves and who knows about them anyways. The 3 prospects going the way of Detroit are legit, great trade. I agree, Chris doesn't mind losin this one, he loves pickin, and #7 should be fun for him.
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