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Post by AvsGM on Aug 31, 2015 13:59:24 GMT -5
Other than PPG…I see no other evidence him being the "best", just a lot of talk about how he's so great, even though outside of his PPG, his stats aren't that impressive. lol, please remove the apparatus...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 15:14:31 GMT -5
Well I guess you've convinced me then with all that bullshit. Nice.
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Post by MontyBurns on Aug 31, 2015 15:46:47 GMT -5
Can we just sum up the argument like this:
Assuming a guy like Teows is a better leader and defensive player than Crosby (Which I would actually concede, though I think the difference is smaller than you seem to), goal production is the #1 measure of value for a forward. Crosby's lines are so much better at that than anyone else that the smaller gaps in leadership and defensive play dont even register.
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Post by Hawks on Aug 31, 2015 15:49:08 GMT -5
Except all those "OTHER" things lead to actually winning….
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Post by gmcanucks on Aug 31, 2015 16:33:01 GMT -5
Other than PPG…I see no other evidence him being the "best", just a lot of talk about how he's so great, even though outside of his PPG, his stats aren't that impressive. lol...No nothing impressive about Sid. Here's some stats for you: 1 - Stanley Cup 2 - Olympic Gold Medals 1 - World Junior Gold Medal 1 - World Hockey Championship Gold Medal 2 - Art Ross Trophies 2 - Hart Trophies 3 - Ted Lindsay/Pearson Awards (Best Player as voted by the players) 1 - Maurice Richard Trophy 3 - First All-Star Team Selection 2 - Second All-Star Team selections 853 points (302 goals and 551 assists) in 627 regular season games 118 points in 100 playoff games (Toews has 102 point in 117 games, btw) Single season highs - 51 goals, 84 assists, 120 points I know you love Toews, but what in that resume screams not impressive?
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Post by Hawks on Aug 31, 2015 16:52:42 GMT -5
Again, this isn't a is Toews better than Crosby thread, its a "Is Crosby the best" thread.
Yeah, Sid has won some scoring titles, the kid can score points, thats not the debate.
The only stat you listed AGAIN was points, listed with his trophies…again for points and the few things he has won.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 17:22:16 GMT -5
Crosby was ninth amongst skaters in GVT, between Tavares and Toews. It's an attempt to measure all facets of a player's contribution. I can't explain it, but go to hockeyprospectus.com. Not saying he's not the best, not saying he is. Just throwing some more numbers for you guys
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Post by AvsGM on Aug 31, 2015 17:31:28 GMT -5
Honestly does it really matter anyway? I know it's a fun discussion but it's something that will never be proven anyhow. If someone doesn't think he's the best player in the world, then he's not. If you think Toews (or anyone else) is better than Crosby, then he is.
I think it's absolutely insane when people argue that Lemieux (injuries or not) or Howe were better players than Gretzky, but everyone has their own opinion.
I personally think that Alexei Kovalev was a way more talented hockey player than say someone like Bobby Nystrom, but I'd take Nystrom 100 times out of 100 due to his all-around attributes and "intangibles". And of course there's a little bit of homer-ism in that.
How do you even rate a "better" player anyhow?
Player A: Scoring: A Passing: C Skating: D Defense: B Avg: C+
Player B: Scoring: C Passing: C Skating: A Defense: C Avg: C+
Trophies? Points? Cups? Locker room leadership that we never see?
It's obvious you're not a fan of Crosby and you definitely unfairly factor that into your assessment. I've probably never disliked a player more than Mark Messier and to this day still do, and weirdly part of that is because there is no way (statistically or not) to "discredit" any of his status as a hockey "legend" and it pisses me off lol!
All of these guys (Toews, Ovechkin, Tavares) make so much damn money I don't think any of them are sitting at home scratching their heads saying to themselves "Damn that Crosby, how does he have them all fooled?!?". Everyone knows, you know too, just free yourself! Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.
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Post by Philly on Aug 31, 2015 17:39:35 GMT -5
I'm a Toews fan and a Tavares fan, not a Crosby fan. So on behalf of the Cros, I'll say he is as smooth as silk and makes everything he does look easy.
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Post by Hawks on Aug 31, 2015 17:44:35 GMT -5
Honestly does it really matter anyway? I know it's a fun discussion but it's something that will never be proven anyhow. If someone doesn't think he's the best player in the world, then he's not. If you think Toews (or anyone else) is better than Crosby, then he is. I think it's absolutely insane when people argue that Lemieux (injuries or not) or Howe were better players than Gretzky, but everyone has their own opinion. I personally think that Alexei Kovalev was a way more talented hockey player than say someone like Bobby Nystrom, but I'd take Nystrom 100 times out of 100 due to his all-around attributes and "intangibles". And of course there's a little bit of homer-ism in that. How do you even rate a "better" player anyhow? Player A: Scoring: A Passing: C Skating: D Defense: B Avg: C+ Player B: Scoring: C Passing: C Skating: A Defense: C Avg: C+ Trophies? Points? Cups? Locker room leadership that we never see? It's obvious you're not a fan of Crosby and you definitely unfairly factor that into your assessment. I've probably never disliked a player more than Mark Messier and to this day still do, and weirdly part of that is because there is no way (statistically or not) to "discredit" any of his status as a hockey "legend" and it pisses me off lol! All of these guys (Toews, Ovechkin, Tavares) make so much damn money I don't think any of them are sitting at home scratching their heads saying to themselves "Damn that Crosby, how does he have them all fooled?!?". Everyone knows, you know too, just free yourself! Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you. Thanks Yoda.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 22:05:49 GMT -5
I am not really sure what stats you are looking for.
Hockey isn't really much of a stats based sport outside of the traditional G-A-P which Crosby has been amazing in. The other stat which I would say is relevant is FO% and Crosby is very good at that as well.
The Takeaway-Giveaway stat is a pretty useless stat in my view for a number of reasons. A. like hits the stat can vary from building to building, b. it tells us nothing about the quality of the play i.e. was it a boneheaded giveaway or a great play by the defensive player c. giveaways are always going to be higher for guys who a. have the puck a lot and b. play against the top defenders in the league.
It seems nothing will change your mind so not sure what the point is going forward.
For me Crosby is the best and it isn't a question. As awesome as Toews is and as much as the Blackhawks have won he just does not have the offensive skills or a high enough ability to make players around him better for his slightly better defensive ability to make up for Crosby much higher ability in the offensive parts of the game.
Watching Crosby play a ton (likely as much as any player outside of the Flames) I see no way anyone could argue that he is weak on the puck, poor defensively or has a problem with giveaways. I would say he is above average in all three areas and in terms of superstars is much better than most defensively.
Crosby has been not only a winner at every level he has played, but proven to be able to rise up in big games/moments. He has done everything you could ask of a superstar and still for reasons that make zero sense has people continually trying (and failing) to come up with BS reasons to knock him. Luckily for him and fans of his he just keeps coming back and proving those doubters wrong time and time again.
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Post by MontyBurns on Sept 1, 2015 15:08:06 GMT -5
Can't say I agree that only GAP matters. Corsi is a great stat, as are relative corsi numbers. Advanced stats are starting to creep in and give us a better idea of what every interaction on the ice means to a team. I still think on the balance Crosby is the best, but to say nothing but points matters isn't true. Otherwise we might as well just have a PA and SC rating and nothing else
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 17:31:28 GMT -5
It's funny that people say Crosby rises in big games in moments but the only one that i can think of is the "golden" goal at the 2010 Olympics and quite frankly.. if he hadn't scored that goal and the Americans had won the game, the talk in Canada would be how invisible Crosby was. Toews had a much better tourney for Canada.. i do remmeber that.
From my perspective, Crosby is more talented, but Toews is more impactful .. and in my books, championships trump everything and so far Toews is kicking his ass lol..
And before anyone says "a nobody can sit on the bench and have 5 rings when a somebody can be on a horrible team" i mean guys that actually lead the team.. and they've both had tremendous supporting casts.
And this may as well be a Crosby vs. Toews thread because no1 else is in the conversation for best all around hockey player in the world. Nobody.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 17:33:03 GMT -5
oh wait i lie.. he did have that crazy playoff game against Ovie where they both scored hat tricks.. that like watching something out of a Mighty Ducks movie! lol... k I'm done.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 18:37:18 GMT -5
It's funny that people say Crosby rises in big games in moments but the only one that i can think of is the "golden" goal at the 2010 Olympics and quite frankly.. if he hadn't scored that goal and the Americans had won the game, the talk in Canada would be how invisible Crosby was. Toews had a much better tourney for Canada.. i do remmeber that. From my perspective, Crosby is more talented, but Toews is more impactful .. and in my books, championships trump everything and so far Toews is kicking his ass lol.. And before anyone says "a nobody can sit on the bench and have 5 rings when a somebody can be on a horrible team" i mean guys that actually lead the team.. and they've both had tremendous supporting casts. And this may as well be a Crosby vs. Toews thread because no1 else is in the conversation for best all around hockey player in the world. Nobody. He was the 2nd best forward (behind Jeff Carter) at the last Olympics, he has over a PPG in his play-off career, scored over a PPG as an 16 and 17 year old at the WJHC, led the World Championships in scoring as a 19 year old, 16 points in 9 games in QMJHL play-offs as a 16 year old, leading scorer in play-offs as a 17 year old. Those seem to be pretty ''big" events and he has constantly been the best or one of the best in these type of events and putting up better than a PPG average as well. I wonder how "impactful" Toews would be with Fleury in net giving up 5+ goals or Kunitz and Dupuis leading the charge instead of Kane and Hossa. I am sure Toews impact has nothing to do with Keith, Seabrook, Hjarmalsson and Oduya versus Martin, Letang, Erhoff and Scuderi. I get it people hate Crosby and try to make up BS reasons for him not being the best, but he is and it isn't close. The debate should not be Crosby vs. Toews as that isn't a debate, there is no argument, Crosby is better. Now if you want to debate who is the 2nd best player sure I think you could easily talk about whether it is Toews, Doughty, Weber, Price or Tavares in my view. I would probably say Toews but that is a much closer argument and an actually debate than Crosby vs. Toews.
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