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Post by Nordiques - Chris on Jul 26, 2022 10:22:28 GMT -5
Still trying to process the incredible turn around of the NHL Flames offseason!
Here's E-Mac's 1st 2023 draft rankings - link in the tweet to website - he has Top 96 already lol - the dude's a machine...
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Post by Sharky on Jul 28, 2022 13:57:53 GMT -5
Love Treliving…. I know he has made some questionable FA signings but drafting and trading (aside from some minor gaffs) have been so good.
The Huberdeau trade is real low risk, high reward in my opinion. Saves us a ton of cap space this year and gives the team another top 4 D in Weegar. If it doesn’t work out both of those guys shouldn’t be hard to move at the deadline. Not to mention adding on a first and pretty good prospect.
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Post by Calgary GM- Scott on Jul 29, 2022 11:31:25 GMT -5
I will preface all this by saying I am likely at the extreme end of if you are not challenging for the Cup you should rebuild to try to get there and making the play-offs and trying to win a round or two is not impressive or exciting for me at all.
That being said I think/thought the Flames should have gone for a total rebuild. I thought this whether John and Tkachuk were coming back or not and especially once it was clear they were leaving. I saw no way they were winning the Cup with them and much less of a chance of winning now that they have left. If the rumoured Jersey deal for Holtz and the 2nd (to take Wright not the crappy d-man NJ took) was a reality I take that 100/100 over the Florida deal.
But I don't think the ownership will let that happen. They seem much more happy to have 5 years of first round play-off exits and the money it brings that trying to win a Cup if it meant years without play-offs. So with those parameters this deal was as good as it would get if the plan is to maintain mediocrity.
I think this makes the Flames somewhere around 2/3rd in their division, 5-6th in the conference and 12-15th overall. They are not a contender at all, have no path to becoming a contender without major luck. But they should be in the play-offs battling to win a round for the next 5 years.
Gaudreau and Tkachuk were never 2 of my favorite players so emotionally there is no loss for me and it is always exciting to start a new era, I just wish the new era was an actual restart with some potential rather than just accepting mediocrity for the next 5-10 years. It is a very Flames style move and way to go and will keep us from drafting high and getting a super star while making sure we don't compete either.
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Post by Sharky on Jul 30, 2022 12:36:39 GMT -5
Definitely disagree…. With Huberdeau, Weegar, and the roughly 9 million in cap savings over Tkachuk and Gaudreau I think the flames are in a better position than they were last year. I don’t think the Flames could have beaten the Aves or Lightening last year, but I honestly think when they were on their game they were a top 4 team and would’ve at least been competitive with the best.
I think “tanking” for 4-6 years hoping we end up with a franchise or generational player is a real lame/ boring way to rebuild. If this trade doesn’t work out Treliving should be able to trade Huberdeau for a real good return at his cap hit.
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Post by Calgary GM- Scott on Jul 31, 2022 9:19:19 GMT -5
I don't think we were close to top 4 even at our best. The defense is weak, our top 6 is below average. Sutter can get results because he is a great coach but I think his coaching masked a major lack of quality in our team.
I much rather prefer tanking over the consistent mediocrity we get with the Flames year after year but as we see that is the owners preference and what we will continue to get unfortunately.
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Post by Sharky on Jul 31, 2022 12:17:59 GMT -5
The Flames had 1 more point than the Tampa Bay Lightning last season. Not saying the Flames are as good - they definitely choked against Edmonton, but it was not a mediocre year!
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Post by Calgary GM- Scott on Jul 31, 2022 12:33:39 GMT -5
The problem is that Tampa Bay did not go full out in the regular season so I am not sure that using point totals is an accurate way to assess each team. TB has shown its quality over multiple years, the Flames have shown their lack of quality over multiple seasons.
Yes last year in the regular season they had a high point total but if you take a broader view looking at previous years, both indidividually and as a team, you see that regular season was the high point for almost everyone, once the play-offs came they struggled against a poor (for a play-off team) Dallas team and were fairly easily beaten by a mediocre Oilers team. The year before they were out of the play-offs before that they went out easily to another weak team.
I know many Flames fans are excited about this team but I just don't see it with them. Hubredeau, Lindholm, Mangianpane, Coleman, Backlund, Toffoli whatever way you split them up is not a good top 6.
Tanev, Anderson, Hanifin, Zadorov, Weegar is a whole lot of meh defensively. All 2nd pairing d at best. But I also realize others have higher opinions on them, I personally do not like any of them which likely skews my view.
I just see no way for this team to compete for a Cup. They are levels below the top teams with zero path to getting better. We don't have quality prospects coming in to make an impact, don't have any young players to take big jumps. We are what we are and that is entirely unimpressive.
I think last seasons regular season was good not great, but with the play-off results make it mediocre for me.
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Post by Sharky on Aug 1, 2022 16:21:15 GMT -5
The Flames ran up against two generational performances in the same playoffs… The Flames dominated Dallas and Oettinger almost stole the series. Then the Flames got annihilated by McDavid who had the highest playoff ppg since the Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr era.
It’s all open to interpretation. On paper there aren’t many teams with a better defense in my opinion.
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Post by Nordiques - Chris on Aug 20, 2022 20:21:47 GMT -5
I agree with elements of both what Scott and Jake saying here, but in recent days, have to say I think this has been a masterful offseason performance by Treliving after a horrid start.
I honestly think the Flames are a top 5 squad right now, and I still think he's looking to add another winger if possible (UFA or other means.
I admit when Gaudreau walked, I was advocating for the Die Hard for Bedard approach, but upon reflection there are too many teams to leapfrog - Yotes, Habs, Hawks, plus Sharks, Ducks, Kraken, even Blue Jackets...
Plus, I do not want the Oilers to have another team to have a cakewalk against.
Someone on CalgaryPuck forum summed up my thoughts: G is unchanged but benefits greatly from the next two line items. D is an upgrade. We arguably have 6 D that could be labeled "top 4" (and 4 D that I think can safely play top pairing minutes and matchups). C is an upgrade. The top 9 can be built around these C as they can all contribute at both ends of the rink. W is a downgrade. Which isn't the end of the world when you consider the rest.
*Is there a team with 3 better two-way centres? 3 Selke candidates. *I put their 6 dmen up against any in the NHL - I daresay the best 6 in the league. Weegar is vastly underrated. *Marky obviously Vezina calibre (he has to recover from horrid Oil series look) *High quality on the wing in Huby, Eat Bread, Teapot (hopefully regains form we saw 1st when he came over), Coleman. Dube & Pelletier X-factors, esp. if we do not add more.
- Avs are still the class of the NHL, but are weaker with the loss of Kadri and now relying on Georgiev and Francouz in goal. - Treliving fleecing of Panthers make them a weaker squad overall - Bolts another year on the chassis, loss of Palat - Leafs gonna leaf; Oilers gonna Oil - Canes remain strong. - I like what Wild have done. - Blues top 10ish. - Kings will be interesting - do they fall back a bit or continue to climb?
Did Tre pay too much for Kadri? I don't think 7 mil is overpay; the 7 yrs is way too much, but without it, you're not getting him. Plus, I'm not a fan of owner/billionaire Murray Edwards, so it's only his effen money lol. Yes, it may handcuff us later.
All that to say, this is easily a top 5 team in the NHL. Maybe I'm most excited is that they will be absolutely miserable for the Oilers to play against.
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Post by Calgary GM- Scott on Aug 22, 2022 9:14:40 GMT -5
I can certainly see the viewpoint of Flames fan that want to be positive but for me we aren't any better, or worse, than we were last season. I think the biggest difference is our views of the defense. I do not like Zadorov at all. I think he is a major liability out there so I would say him and Kylingotn are definitely not top 4 guys and honestly poor options on the bottom pairing. I also am not impressed with Andersson or Hanifin both are secondary guys for me that are thrust into roles they can't handle, especially defensively. I think both get by in the regular season when they don't have to face top talent as often but in the play-offs their defensive play is badly exposed when they face top players that neither can handle. Tanev is great and I don't have much issue with him other than concerns about his age and injuries but he is a perfect 2nd pairing guy that can face tough match-ups and/or help a weaker player defensively. I onw there is a lot of overhype around this group but it appears to be we have 4 2nd pairing #4 level guys and zero top pairing, at least quality top pairing guys. Stanley Cup winners always seem to have at least one stud on the back end and we have nobody close to the Hedman, Makar, Petrangelo level player.
I also don't rate Backlund and kadri as anything more than ok two-way centres. I know Backlund has built up a reputation, undeserved, that he is some great 2-way center but it just isn't the case watching him and offensively, ugh, no thanks.
We will see how things turn out but the Flames will need a ton of luck and injuries to other team for them to make it out of the WCF and I think the Stanley Cup is an absolute pipe dream. At this point I would say very much like last season it is a toss up for them to make it out of the 2nd round and they face a real chance of losing in the 1st round as well.
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Post by Nordiques - Chris on Aug 22, 2022 21:54:45 GMT -5
Love seeing all the viewpoints - I get it, Scott - totally - I disagree on some points, but I'm guessing the reality is somewhere in this middle. This would be a fun conversation over a few craft beer I'm sure (or a hangout of whatever sort!).
THere are definite holes and weaknesses in this squad. Starting Markstrom making himself look smaller than Jusse Saros in the Oiler series, and on out from there. There was also the mind-boggling signing of Rooney for 1.2 mil x 2 yrs - I fail to see how he deserves more than league minimum. I call the 4th line of Lucic-rOoney-Lewis the LOL, because they are laugh out loud scary.
Cup is a definite, undeniable longshot, but I'm just hoping they are competitive and tough to play against (esp. for Oilers).
I admittedly also get unreasonably optimistic with Flames teams "on paper". And this level of optimism usually leads to disappointment lol
Let's do that hockey and we'll have to see how it unfolds...
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Post by Sharky on Aug 23, 2022 2:08:21 GMT -5
I think one reason American teams have been more successful by an insane margin for the past 30 years is because those teams don’t have fans demanding constant change and over reaction to every little up and down a team has.
In net, no doubt Markstrom had a brutal series against the Oilers but he was second in Verona voting last year. He was one of the best goalies in the league last year. Ya he didn’t come through in the most important games of the season, but even the best goalies have bad series. Even the best goalies like Roy, Brodeur, Fleury etc have had multiple terrible playoff series. Our depth in net isn’t bad at all either… Vladar gained my confidence last year and if one of our starters get injured I am really interested to see how Wolf steps in.
On D I definitely agree that we lack a true #1 defenseman, but they can ice three pairings on paper that are top four worthy and that will hopefully result in consistency.
On F I kind of feel the same way. Although aside from a Huberdeau we may lack a second superstar, having the depth of Lindholm, Kadri and Backlund down the middle will allow Sutter to role three really consistent centres.
At the end of the day it’s going to depend on if Sutter can get this team chemistry working again. Are they a long shot at the cup? Of course… even the best team in the league with the highest Vegas odds to win a cup next year is +400….
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Post by Sharky on Aug 23, 2022 2:53:01 GMT -5
Also I thought Rooney was decent in the playoffs? I don’t really mind the signing for a 4th liner. People didn’t like Gudbranson last year either.
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