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Post by gmcanucks on Jul 9, 2014 11:12:04 GMT -5
If we wait on the pay scale change we have to wait on the compensation change. How come? The change from salary to OV had nothing to do with payscale? (not that i really care if I have to wait ANOTHER year for salary RFA comp to avoid destroying value on my team in a way I couldnt have forseen) Yeah. As good as Gavin and Jon's plan is, I'm still not 100% understanding why you can't change the compensation without changing the pay scale.
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Post by Hawks on Jul 9, 2014 11:25:54 GMT -5
I already explained why they are now closely related.
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Post by MontyBurns on Jul 9, 2014 11:37:56 GMT -5
You explained why it makes sense to link them now, but not why one automatically has to happen if the other does.
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Post by Hawks on Jul 9, 2014 12:12:08 GMT -5
Because you can't change the comp without setting the salary properly, otherwise you have players being started with lower comp then they should.
I get you have some re-signs to make Shawn, but your team is insane as well…I don't think you (or anyone) should get an insane roster and not expect to pay for it.
Better players cost more, worst players cost less. Honestly I wasn't happy with the original pay scale we had in place anyway, this is a great time to adjust it.
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Post by Philly on Jul 9, 2014 12:21:15 GMT -5
All you guys that decided and voted for comp based on salary, I hope pay through the nose. LOL
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Post by gmcanucks on Jul 9, 2014 13:07:04 GMT -5
Just to clarify, I actually think adjusting the pay scale is a good idea, but if we make the adjustment, I think we need a larger salary cap increase than $ 1 million. If you're going to inflate 20-25% of the players' salaries, teams are going to need more cap room to accomodate that.
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Post by MontyBurns on Jul 9, 2014 13:49:37 GMT -5
Because you can't change the comp without setting the salary properly, otherwise you have players being started with lower comp then they should. I get you have some re-signs to make Shawn, but your team is insane as well…I don't think you (or anyone) should get an insane roster and not expect to pay for it. Better players cost more, worst players cost less. Honestly I wasn't happy with the original pay scale we had in place anyway, this is a great time to adjust it. Well, theres a few things: 1. My team sure was insane, thanks 2. I expected to pay for them, and I still do. This isnt about paying for them, this is about paying significantly more for them this offseason than I would have expected to based on the old rules. 3. Im still not clear on the link between RFA payscale (which im not against raising) and RFA comp based on salary bid. We can agree that last year there was absolutely no link between RFA comp and payscale. With the change I agree it is an opportunity to link the two, but I dont see why it MUST be at the same time. Also, to Ray's comment below, (I hope you all pay through the nose), thats not constructive or appropriate. Thats the kind of partisan bitching that breeds bad blood and creates arguments over the boards. The switch from OV to salary comp has been coming for literally 8 years. I have been arguing for it forever. We actually had a vote on it 5 years ago. This isnt a situation where people are trying to change the system to suit them, this actually makes more sense (to me, anyway)
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Post by Philly on Jul 9, 2014 13:56:38 GMT -5
Lightin up dude just kidding- but I am gettin tired of lectures from people like you and detroit etc..No one gave a fuck about the trades i made to get comp before the change, but now you wanna whine like i did, about salaries , but that's OK. Right? When I whine I'm selfish but not you.
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Post by Hawks on Jul 9, 2014 14:05:28 GMT -5
Because you can't change the comp without setting the salary properly, otherwise you have players being started with lower comp then they should. I get you have some re-signs to make Shawn, but your team is insane as well…I don't think you (or anyone) should get an insane roster and not expect to pay for it. Better players cost more, worst players cost less. Honestly I wasn't happy with the original pay scale we had in place anyway, this is a great time to adjust it. Well, theres a few things: 1. My team sure was insane, thanks 2. I expected to pay for them, and I still do. This isnt about paying for them, this is about paying significantly more for them this offseason than I would have expected to based on the old rules. 3. Im still not clear on the link between RFA payscale (which im not against raising) and RFA comp based on salary bid. We can agree that last year there was absolutely no link between RFA comp and payscale. With the change I agree it is an opportunity to link the two, but I dont see why it MUST be at the same time. I really just don't know how many more ways I can say the same thing. If you think a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick are appropriate comp for a 74 OV player, thats fine…but I thought you guys wanted compensation to be better and more competitive.
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Post by Philly on Jul 9, 2014 14:15:18 GMT -5
You got lucky that they changed comp Shawn. Trust me, you were first on my list.
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Post by MontyBurns on Jul 9, 2014 14:26:27 GMT -5
Well, theres a few things: 1. My team sure was insane, thanks 2. I expected to pay for them, and I still do. This isnt about paying for them, this is about paying significantly more for them this offseason than I would have expected to based on the old rules. 3. Im still not clear on the link between RFA payscale (which im not against raising) and RFA comp based on salary bid. We can agree that last year there was absolutely no link between RFA comp and payscale. With the change I agree it is an opportunity to link the two, but I dont see why it MUST be at the same time. I really just don't know how many more ways I can say the same thing. If you think a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick are appropriate comp for a 74 OV player, thats fine…but I thought you guys wanted compensation to be better and more competitive. Im not sure, because a 74 OV RFA gets a 5 mil base salary, and according to the last comp proposal you posted: "$4,000,000 - $6,499,999 = Two 1st round picks AND one 2nd Round Pick within the next 2 years (current entry draft or '15) - ONE 1st round pick MUST be in the upcoming entry draft" Im not trying to needle, i genuinely dont see the issue. Also, if, for example, a star player got meh ratings (70 OV), and therefore a 3 million salary, sure, the minimum bid will give really shitty comp to the team that holds his rights, but would a min bid ever work?
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Post by MontyBurns on Jul 9, 2014 14:30:24 GMT -5
Lightin up dude just kidding- but I am gettin tired of lectures from people like you and detroit etc..No one gave a fuck about the trades i made to get comp before the change, but now you wanna whine like i did, about salaries , but that's OK. Right? When I whine I'm selfish but not you. Well, firstly, you made handshake deals that youve openly said you will void due to the rule change, so no harm no foul. Second, with those trades you made i fully expected you to make some RFA bids, whats the big deal? You say I was your target. Did I ask for the rules to be changed? Also, i should have said this in my other post, but i do NOT think we should raise the cap even if we change the payscale. If it were my choice (and it certainly isnt) I would phase it in for next year so teams can plan and keep the cap the same. But to raise the cap defeats the purpose of having higher salaries for great young players.
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Post by Hawks on Jul 9, 2014 14:31:08 GMT -5
I really just don't know how many more ways I can say the same thing. If you think a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick are appropriate comp for a 74 OV player, thats fine…but I thought you guys wanted compensation to be better and more competitive. Im not sure, because a 74 OV RFA gets a 5 mil base salary, and according to the last comp proposal you posted: "$4,000,000 - $6,499,999 = Two 1st round picks AND one 2nd Round Pick within the next 2 years (current entry draft or '15) - ONE 1st round pick MUST be in the upcoming entry draft" Im not trying to needle, i genuinely dont see the issue. Also, if, for example, a star player got meh ratings (70 OV), and therefore a 3 million salary, sure, the minimum bid will give really shitty comp to the team that holds his rights, but would a min bid ever work? He can still be raised to the top of his comp tier without worry. That 70 OV could still have bids up to say 3,999,999 without changing to the next tier on this list. I don't expect anyone to ever take comp, because the only time people take comp is if the picks are worth more than the player, in which case, its unlikely that player will get bid on in the first place. I guess the 74 OV was a bad example, but what about 71 OV players? They actively move down a Tier without an adjustment, thats an issue.
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Post by Hawks on Jul 9, 2014 14:34:03 GMT -5
Lightin up dude just kidding- but I am gettin tired of lectures from people like you and detroit etc..No one gave a fuck about the trades i made to get comp before the change, but now you wanna whine like i did, about salaries , but that's OK. Right? When I whine I'm selfish but not you. Well, firstly, you made handshake deals that youve openly said you will void due to the rule change, so no harm no foul. Second, with those trades you made i fully expected you to make some RFA bids, whats the big deal? You say I was your target. Did I ask for the rules to be changed? Also, i should have said this in my other post, but i do NOT think we should raise the cap even if we change the payscale. If it were my choice (and it certainly isnt) I would phase it in for next year so teams can plan and keep the cap the same. But to raise the cap defeats the purpose of having higher salaries for great young players. Lol, I didn't want to really raise the cap either, but with a salary increase I felt it was probably a good idea to give SOMETHING back to the GMs. You don't want it changed, others seem to think 1m isn't nearly enough. I think 1m is probably fine, the majority of players are either the same or seeing a decrease, its only the top players that are seeing a small increase to match the compensation chart. Honestly the change to the pay scale is so minor I'm slightly surprised by the negative feedback…although I suppose anything that makes things more difficult will be seen in a negative light.
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Post by Philly on Jul 9, 2014 14:37:03 GMT -5
Shawn I agree with you that big changes should start the following season, not just before FA. Some time you guys need to look at the whole picture when you want a change that doesn't directly involve you, because it just might when the dust clears.
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