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Post by Hawks on Oct 29, 2019 14:10:49 GMT -5
Always amuses me when someone claims a 1st rounder from 2017 is worthless, but a 2nd round from 2017 is solid gold.
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Post by LeafsGM on Oct 29, 2019 14:23:26 GMT -5
Feels like the way we evaluate trades have become too subjective. Sure Kevin got him for free, but does that mean Bergeron is now worthless because of it? Or is it because he's 10 mil? or both? The flip side of that is when you're discussing a player trade with another GM and they say "I'm asking for a lot because I gave up a lot when trading for him, so feel like I have to get it back." Both are flawed ways of evaluating player value imo.
Sorry for the rant but just think we often forget what wins in our league. It's not "potential", it's not someone's age, and it's not fancy names. It's players with 83SC, 84PA, 87FO, 78DF, 91SK, and 88PH. /rant
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Post by Sharky on Oct 29, 2019 14:36:09 GMT -5
Always amuses me when someone claims a 1st rounder from 2017 is worthless, but a 2nd round from 2017 is solid gold. Lol Gavin. Who said that?
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Post by Sharky on Oct 29, 2019 14:41:40 GMT -5
Gustav Lindstrom was a 2nd in 2017. Berdin is also a good goaltending prospect. So there is more to the deal there. Second, there is a limited market for a $10 million dollar player and that affects value. How many contenders can afford a $10 million cap hit outright? Last, saying that Bergeron is going to be rated this way from the next three years is assuming a lot, he is already on a slower PPG pace than he had last year. Agree that the market is limited, but by no means is this the best time to get proper value for him. Cap increase time the market will go way up for those ratings. For someone like Kevin to land the top UFA center only to flip him for scraps (no offense, but they are), just doesn't make sense to me. It's not like he's desperately trying to make space to resign someone else. On your point about his NHL numbers, just checked and he's almost on pace to match everything from last year. Willing to bet the guy will be 75-77OV for the remainder of his contract. I get it, any max deal is awful for a hard cap league and can really screw you. But based on all the current factors that's the worst value I've ever seen for a 77OV player who would easily be the top player on any contender this season. So on the same board where people are saying Kevin is going to have trouble filling a roster with 40 million in cap space tied up in 4 players, people are saying he can’t trade one of them for what is the equivalent of 3x 2nd round picks and Berdin? Bergeron is coming off a career season at the age of 34. He had 79 points in 64 games. Right now he has 11 points in 11 games. That is not nearly the same pace. In my opinion it is not your place to tell Kevin when he should trade Bergeron. Could he get more at a future date? Sure maybe. But he also may not find a buyer at the deadline with 10 million in cap space and a willingness to give up more than three 2nd round picks for Bergeron.
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Post by LeafsGM on Oct 29, 2019 14:53:55 GMT -5
So on the same board where people are saying Kevin is going to have trouble filling a roster with 40 million in cap space tied up in 4 players, people are saying he can’t trade one of them for what is the equivalent of 3x 2nd round picks and Berdin? Bergeron is coming off a career season at the age of 34. He had 79 points in 64 games. Right now he has 11 points in 11 games. That is not nearly the same pace. In my opinion it is not your place to tell Kevin when he should trade Bergeron. Could he get more at a future date? Sure maybe. But he also may not find a buyer at the deadline with 10 million in cap space and a willingness to give up more than three 2nd round picks for Bergeron. Earlier I moved Palat for two 2020 3rds, both of which should essentially be low 2nds. You're telling me that the difference between Palat and Bergeron is a 2nd and Berdin? LOL It's 11 games in.. I'm sure he will finish at or around where he did last season. He's the straw that stirs that drink. Definitely not telling Kevin when he should trade him, that's his prerogative. All I can do is vote on the trade and give my unsolicited opinion on it lol
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Post by LeafsGM on Oct 29, 2019 15:01:37 GMT -5
Just to strengthen my argument, here's what 10 mil Panarin went for earlier: Jaden Schwartz, Tyler Bertuzzi, Filip Hronek, 2020 4th Rd. Pick (Fla), 2021 2nd Rd. Pick
Sure there's 1 year on his contract, and he has 3 years on Bergeron in age, albeit with worse ratings. But if we compare the two deals, they're not even in the same continent
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Post by Sharky on Oct 29, 2019 15:06:09 GMT -5
You just keep inventing/changing facts out of the blue. Your 3rds are essentially worth low 2nds? That doesn't make any sense. I am giving up actually three 2nd round picks as well as a decent prospect.
How are those trades even comparable? Palat makes 2 million. I honestly do think Palat AND 8 million in cap space does really narrow the difference between him and a 10 million dollar just signed UFA.
The bottom line is Kevin acquired the equivalent of three 2nd round picks and a decent goaltending prospect for essentially cap space.
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Post by Sharky on Oct 29, 2019 15:08:15 GMT -5
Just to strengthen my argument, here's what 10 mil Panarin went for earlier: Jaden Schwartz, Tyler Bertuzzi, Filip Hronek, 2020 4th Rd. Pick (Fla), 2021 2nd Rd. Pick Sure there's 1 year on his contract, and he has 3 years on Bergeron in age, albeit with worse ratings. But if we compare the two deals, they're not even in the same continent Again, not really comparable 1) The Penguins have told me that is his single biggest regret in this league... so there is that. 2) Panarin's salary is set to come down millions next year. 3) Panarin is an RFA and is a lot younger. He's also not coming off what is probably going to be the best season of his career.
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Post by LeafsGM on Oct 29, 2019 16:12:00 GMT -5
Just to clarify, I meant the two 3rds for Palat are Detroit's and Florida's, both of which are not projected to finish in the top 20 standings. Your team is usually top 10, so your 2nds will not be high ones. If you translate that to NHL rounds, all picks involved are all going to be in the 50-60 range.
Look i don't want to beat a dead horse here, but f&$k that horse. I just think this deal sets a bad precedent for several reasons. It undermines what's already a wild yearly UFA market - If there's no consequences for bad cap management, then salaries are going to continue skyrocketing. Second, it generally diminishes the value of ratings in our league. If a 77OV player can be moved for a few low 2nds (btw Lindstrom is not worth the equivalent of a 2nd rounder today just because he was drafted there 2 years ago), then no one will ever want to give up anything of value for them.
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Post by RedWings_Mike on Oct 29, 2019 16:21:31 GMT -5
Just to strengthen my argument, here's what 10 mil Panarin went for earlier: Jaden Schwartz, Tyler Bertuzzi, Filip Hronek, 2020 4th Rd. Pick (Fla), 2021 2nd Rd. Pick Sure there's 1 year on his contract, and he has 3 years on Bergeron in age, albeit with worse ratings. But if we compare the two deals, they're not even in the same continent Again, not really comparable 1) The Penguins have told me that is his single biggest regret in this league... so there is that. 2) Panarin's salary is set to come down millions next year. 3) Panarin is an RFA and is a lot younger. He's also not coming off what is probably going to be the best season of his career. The LAST time I tell Jake a secret I guess.....
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Post by Philly on Oct 29, 2019 16:47:09 GMT -5
It's simple, if you think a trade is bogus, reject it.
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Post by Sharky on Oct 29, 2019 17:11:53 GMT -5
I have seen far worse trades pass already this season than this one. This trade makes both teams stronger and fits the needs of both teams. I can’t say the same about a couple other ones that have passed.
What sets a bad precedent is that a trade is being rejected that helps both teams. It also shows how fucked up the rules are given u bid ten million on four players, and all four of those players got matched and went to the worst team in the league. How does that improve parity?
I also sure think there are a few GMs out there with other reasons to vote against this deal.
You have managed to misconstrue facts about this trade, provide completely irrelevant examples and in my opinion influenced the outcome of the vote.
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Post by Sharky on Oct 29, 2019 17:15:20 GMT -5
The reason people don’t want to give up much value for a $10 million player is that they simply aren’t worth that much. You are fighting against the market here Eug.
And wanting to punish a team for bad cap management is a bullshit reason to reject a deal. Especially since in the process you are fucking over a team that has managed the cap well and has a competitive roster but still has room to fit in a $10 million free agent that could very well turn my team into a contender.
Bergeron is 37 at the end of this contract.
So many reasons why this is just complete bullshit.
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Post by LeafsGM on Oct 29, 2019 17:22:53 GMT -5
Let's just agree to disagree there Jake. I never meant to sway the vote one way, and never do when I comment on trades. By design the opinions thread will start a discussion on deals before they pass or reject. I mean if you expect me to wait a few days until it passes to give an opinion it kind of defeats the purpose don't you think?
And if you're saying I have some ulterior motives here trust me man I have no dog in the race. Not overly worried about getting value for my UFAs. I just simply think it's a bad deal 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by LeafsGM on Oct 29, 2019 17:25:38 GMT -5
Oh unless of course you mean because I have your 1st? Loll of course, pls tank!!
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